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Um...Children?

CAPTION: The Duggar Family of TLC fame. 

This, I guess, is a private, personal topic and I'm not trying to take a survey to govern such an important decision, but I guess I am curious for input.  Raising children is on my mind....and with good reason, they are all around me, in real life and in the media.

For instance, Lovina, The Amish Cook, has eight children. EIGHT.  I even have one of them named after me.  They are a blessing, and I love them, but I don't have to take care of them day in and day out.  Yet when you hear Lovina talk she genuinely says her life would be so much less rich without them.  

Meanwhile, I have three cute nieces, one was just born in October and she makes you melt with her smiles.  Kinda makes me want one of my own.

Friend after friend of mine are experiencing parenthood for the first time.   And, sheesh, I guess it can't be THAT bad of an experience because people then have seconds, and thirds, and in the case of the California woman, FOURTEEN.   And, of course, there are the Duggars.....

Sooooo....I've been married five months...I'm not getting any younger.   On the downside, it would seem that children are expensive, babies wake you up in the middle of the night, they totally upend your life.  Right now I can come and go as I please, take off and go anywhere I want, go running, biking, and baking on a moment's notice.  Why would I want to trade that in?  Help!  Not that I expect anyone to publicly post that they regret having children, but, I guess I'm just seeking objective guidance, can anyone tell me what the best thing about having children is?  The world has billions more people than the ecosystem can actually handle, so I don't think the world would be less if Rachel and I opted not to have any.....It's a decision were sort of discussing and we'll decide together, but any pros and cons out there someone can share??


Re: Um...Children?

You will learn a type of Love that you never really knew you had when you become a parent.

There will be moments of complete joy, moments of the greatest anger, moments of the worst fear you've ever known...you will go through the entire spectrum of emotions in  raising your child.  

But it will be worth it...it is the hardest job, but the most rewarding job as well as being the most thankless job.   Smile

 You will learn so much about yourself as a human and you will grow as well...the moment that child is placed in your hands, or you hear it's tiny heartbeat within your wives body...it will steal your heart forever... not only are you teaching your child, it is teaching you life lessons you may never have learned. You will be willing to give your life literally for this little spec of humanity laying wrapped up in your arms. 

 It is not always easy being a parent, and just when you think all is well and they are safely leading their lives, you can stop worrying...something new might crop up..

For examply my eldest son was wounded in the war, it has been a long road to recovery, he was left a quad. It took us a year and a half before he and I could come home together. I never left his side until that day happened...it meant I had to be a mother to my youngest over the phone each morning before he left for school and each evening for 3 hours  while I helped with school work, listened to how his day went. He was a month before his 16th birthday when his brother was injured, he was just 18 when we came home...during holidays and summer vacation he came to be with us.  It was never easy....but we did it...having children you will learn patience, you will discover strengths you never knew you had within you...

You will have moments you fall on your face, but they love you and they are resilent and will turn out ok, just so long as you never give up.  You will never be able to protect them from the world, all you can do is teach them to be the best humans they can be and trust that your example that they grew up watching and learning from will help guide them through when the unexpected happens to them.  

Today the family is stronger, my son is engaged to the girl who waited for him to come home. She stayed with me by his side and together they flew home from the Veterns hospital.  Thier lives will never be what her parents or I dreamed for them, or what they had dreamed it would be. But as she told him at the hospital, it was not his ability to walk that she fell in love with. It was the whole package....his courage has taught me so much on how to be a better human, a better mother...if I had known how it would turn out, would I have changed my mind about becoming a mother...

 Not at all, because I have been so blessed with the kind of love I never knew existed until I became a parent...when the time comes for you and Rachel to have your own. 

You both will learn this as wellSmile

paulaayn's picture
Re: Um...Children?

 That was such a beautiful post!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

Re: Um...Children?

for me personally, having children was not a major decision, my husband is one of fourteen siblings and i myself come from a large family, we have three, none of which we had to think about first, if i could go back i would not change anything, kevin, a baby will be a part of you and rachel, a living legacy so to speak, if your heart is open there is room, i know this is a personal decision for sure, but don't over think it, it is much easier than your thinking it might be, if there is love in your heart there is room in your life for children.... godbless

Re: Um...Children?

I dont know that there are any cons to having children.  They are a gift from God, and when some one says they "cant afford children", it makes me ill.  Do you think your grand parents or parents  "could afford children?"  There are such things as hand-me-downs, and second had baby furniture.  The trouble in this day and age is that everybody thinks they need to have EVERYTHING before they can have children. Well thats not what life is all about.  We have 7 children and 17 grand children with 2 more on the way.  It was not always easy, but we managed.  My husband is in a wheel chair, he lost his legs in Vietnam, but with the Lords help, life has been great !  We have a grand daughter in Heaven. She died from a rare brain tumor 4 years ago when she was almost 3.  Like Lovina would say, "the Lord makes no mistakes."  Children are a gift from God and ours to take care of for Him.  I couldnt emagin going through life with out children and grandchildren..but like they say, you dont miss something you never had.  Go for it Kevin, you will never regret it !

Re: Um...Children?

It seems to me that both sides of this have very valid points and I think that respect needs to be offered on both sides. True the world is chaos now. We were promised nothing but that. Parents are leaving the home at an alarming rate and giving the children to others to raise them. In turn parents are taking their parents to nursing homes to have others take care of them. Love has waxed cold. We are seeing frightening stories of things that should not be happening in the family that are happening. It is heart wrenching. Not in our lifetime has being a parent not been a more serious and complex issue. The influences of the world and all it has to offer.... A devils play ground at best. But we as Christians can make a difference. we can capture the hearts of our children and train them to be an example of our Lord. Control them? I am not sure, it is more complicated than that. "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it"  To us training is not just telling a child what to do. It is walking the walk right next to them and giving up your life for the privillage of giving them back to God. It is their free choice, But Lord willing, our first fruits are a beautiful offering back to He whom has given it. These are terrible times but you can raise children who can be a light a dark and dreary world. Elaine

Re: Um...Children?

Kevin, the ultimate decision on whether or when to have children is up to you and Rachel. No one else can tell you what to do, you have to go with what is in your hearts. I always wanted to have a houseful of kids. But it didn't turn out that way for me; I miscarried my first one, then had my precious daughter two years later. I had female problems and never could get pregnant again, ended up getting a hysterectomy at 28 years of age. I had to accept that that was God's will. When I remarried later on, I "inherited" two, very undisciplined, very unaccepting (of me) teenagers who lived with us. We lost my stepson when he was 24. My stepdaughter is 45 now and we are very close, and my daughter is now 36 and she is my whole world! I have four beautiful grandkids I could not live without! It's been extremely hard at times, but I'm so glad we have our kids and grandkids in our lives! It would have been a very different world without them. ~Diann

paulaayn's picture
Re: Um...Children?

Well said Diann.  We were only blessed with one child too and know the pain.  Your stepdaughter just shows that you DO have influence over children (regardless of age) and that love usually wins out in the end.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

Re: Um...Children?

Kevin.. I agree that children are a Gift and we Love them unconditonally! They bring the biggest JOYS and the next minute, not so much JOY. I have four.... a 12 year old son, a 5 year daughter, and twin boys that are 2. My house is BUSY... but at the end of my day I always reflect back on the JOY. Like yesterday my son wrote a paper for class and is was so amazing it made me beam, or that daughter had her first offical "play date" at someone's house from class ,she was so Happy!  My twins were a HUGE SURPRISE!! They are litttle miracles. I stared labor at 21 weeks,my water broke at 22 weeks and then resealed (MIRACLE) and I carried them till 36 and half weeks!!! How awesome is that!! I am very blessed! You should think on it... just don't wait till the "perfect time" I don't think there is one.Smile

Re: Um...Children?

As the saying goes, "Children make adults out of parents."  ~CS~

"Children are the living messages we send to a time we cannot see."                                                              ~J. W. Whitehead~

                                                              

Re: Um...Children?

I agree with a lot that's already been said...  Yes, it's the hardest job you'll ever take on, but even in my most frustrated moments, I find it's totally worth it!  It definitely takes money, but if you wait until you're "ready," it will never happen.  And yes, most everything will change - but not in a bad sense. 

That said, Kevin, I'm going to try and throw in a slightly different train of thought here.  My favorite thing about having kids - the thing I never thought of going in - and the thing I find the most rewarding - is getting to see the world from through their eyes.  It's all brand new to them.  In my moments of true disillusionment with life, with the world, with people...my kids are my hope!  The most mundane things are brilliant!  You get to watch them working it all out in their little heads...and it is the most amazing experience/feeling you will ever, ever have.

Rebecca    

Re: Um...Children?

Hmmm, it is that type of "amazingness" that you conveyed that intrigues me most about having children, but no one can ever really seem to describe it beyond that just this "indescribable" or "amazing" feeling of "something"....but what is that something? An intriguing discussion...Well, I'm glad I don't have to decide on this tonightLaughing...soon, but....there's a little more time to ponder....

Re: Um...Children?

Kevin, imagine being a newborn again...getting to see the world again, when all of it is brand new to you.  Imagine being fascinated by the simplest of things...your hands - how they move and grasp...birds flying...ants crawling...feeling the wind...hearing things for the first time... 

Now imagine having all the knowledge you have now, yet, being able to experience all those brilliant firsts again...being able to shed the disillusionment and disappointments you may have come to associate with those things...even if just for a few fleeting seconds...

That's what the "amazing feeling" feels like. 

Rebecca

LuvMaerz's picture
Re: Um...Children?

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift... that's why they call it the present."

Having kids doesn't necessarily let you live your childhood again (I wish!), but it gives you a chance to see what it was like through your parents' eyes.  And that, my friend, is insanely amazing!

KJuneBug's picture
Re: Um...Children?

That amazement, is getting to see God at work first hand.  Thinking about how a child comes to being and knowing that God has allowed you, a little glimpse into heaven. It is going off to the hospital as a husband and wife and coming home, with this new little person, who can't continue to survive without you; and who is the combination of both husband and wife. It's the "when two become one" part of marriage and it is knowing that the world is going to go on.  It's so difficult to describe because it is just that amazing!

Kevin, don't over analysis this too much.  Just go with your hearts, God will lead you in this.  You and Rachel will be (notice the tense here!!) great parents! Anytime anyone gives it as much thought as you are, well, no worries!

Now I know what to pray about for you!!  I love to pray for babies!  

And Google this word "lamanin" it is the glue that holds our cells together.  Read about it, I think you'll find some answers to your questions!   

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Titus 2:5

Re: Um...Children?

I think that having children has been the greatest Blessing of my life. Yes, They are trying. Yes, they are expensive. yes, yes yes to all of that. BUT... God had the most perfect plan in giving us a GIFT in the package of a child. They are the heritage of the Lord and He tell us they are a REWARD! I have grown so much with the help of my 6 lovely blessings. I cannot express enough how I have grown in patience, love, unselfishness, longsuffering, hope just to name a few of the qualities that He in turn wants us to have in our faith. Amazing that He gives us a gift that will almost definatly try us to our very end, but in reality they are given to us to help us to draw closer to Him. I would have never looked to the future outside of myself half so much had I not had a reason to live out my faith for footsteps that were following my own.

Re: Um...Children?

Thank you for that...

KJuneBug's picture
Re: Um...Children?

Amen.

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Titus 2:5

Re: Um...Children?

I say bypass having children and go right for the grandkids, LOL They are the GREATEST! Bounce~Diann

KJuneBug's picture
Re: Um...Children?

If the Lord is willing to bless you with the ability to have children, then have children.  The Bible says that "Children are an heritage from the Lord".  If the Bible says to do something, I usually do it.  Deciding to have children has nothing to do with dollars and cents; when you are in a healthy Biblical marriage, you just have to trust that the Lord knows what he is doing.  

God dropped me into single parenthood in my mid 20's; it was the best thing that ever happeded to me at that time.  I didn't know Christ at that time.  When my oldest Daugh. was 4, she and I were baptized together and began our Christian walk together.  A few years later He lead me and my DH together and that's when the babyboom really hit, twin sons, a daughter then another daughter in 4ys and 11 months!  We wish we were blessed with more!

Talk about feeling like there was no "me" left in me!  Then this realization from Christ, my selfish nature was pretty strong; He lead me in a study on selfishness and selflessness.  One of the main points was that all anger is rooted in selfishness.  That really hit home, the above statement about trying "my" patience...is really all about becoming selfless vs. selfish. The unconditional love part is pretty easy, it just comes naturally. 

You really don't want to grow old and regret not trying to have children when the time was right; that is a regret that can't be changed when you are old.   

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Titus 2:5

Re: Um...Children?

Ok I'm going to play Devil's Advocate. Many women desire to be pregnant for the experience, babies are cute, they don't need new stuff, etc, etc. that's the basics. Here's the other side, there's a rapidly growing segment of the population that does not want kids or grandkids & then there is the group that cannot have children on their own and have to use fertility drugs. They end up with 4-6 children and it's not John & Kate Plus 8 cuteness.

These babies are usually extremely small as in about 2 lbs and tv only shows us the nice stuff, they don't show the medical bills that are stacked miles high, they don't show us the deaf, blind, profoundly mentally challenged children, etc and that's just the first year. There are also the thousands of cases of CP, autism, and other diseases not yet named.  and I've haven't covered the ones on peg tubs, vents, and other high tech equipment.

And that's just the tiny ones, the big babies 9 lbs or more whose ranks are increasing due to our poor diets and sedentary lifestyles, are showing paralysis on one side of the body from shoulder dysotica from the labors, brain damage from nuchal cords being wrapped around the neck, diabetes from being too large for their gestational age, etc.  

Children may give unconditional love but babies do not and weall start off as babies.  It is a fallacy, just ask any OB nurse or doctor many of whom are also parents.  I don't mean this cruelly but babies don't care who is feeding, clothing, changing or swaddling them as long as it's done. Do they respond better to voices they recognize from when they were in utero? Yes but the reality is they can & do respond with anyone who they sense is not nervous or afraid of them. I have in fact seen many children who were even tempered in the hospital and turned into colicky, fussy, things within days of going home leaving the parents sleepless, bitter, and wondering what the heck happened.

With that said I say people should do what they want if they can afford it and if they truely think it through and not do it because they want some future grand children. We are in an age where many grandparents are raising their grandchildren as their kids and it's no walk in the park for them.  Us Englishers for the most part do not have the support system the Amish do, when we have kids we're pretty much alone.  Keep in mind that the lovely, plump baby of today can grow up to be a murderer, a thief, a drug addict, a pedophile, an astronaut, a surgeon, etc. Parents have absolutely no control over what someone might grow up to be or do. If one can say " the killer in cell two is my child" just as easily as they can say "the cardiac surgeon in the front row is my child" then by all means go for it because it means it was truely thought through.

I know it sounds very negative but we live in a society that puts more research into buying houses and cars then it does into having children and that annoys me. They are separate human beings  who are capabable of great beauty and great evil not some tiny doll-like, picture perfect, replica of ourselves.

 

Re: Um...Children?

I think the point Moonstruck is trying to make is some will have babies without thinking through the what if's and having them for the wrong reasons.  I also think she is making a point that of all the things in our society we have rules and regulations, and research on, parenting is pretty much left up to the parent.  I can tell you from the point of seeing little darlings most every day, that there are parents out there that did have their child for the wrong reasons, need to take parenting classes but in their mind it's not them that has the problem it's the child.  Children with severe behavioral issues that need outside therapies but the parents' don't like it when the therapist talk to them about themselves and not the child and take offensive that someone might think they are the reason for their child's outburst. Parents who call the school on snow days and yell at personnel because they see the school as their babysitter. One who had the child so that the dad had someone to play with while he stayed home and mom agreed because she was afraid that dad would start seeing other women while she was at work. Oh I can go on and on as to what all I have seen these past 20+ years.

With that in mind, Kevin when you and Rachael talk about this, make sure you are doing it for the right reasons, talk through the what if's especially when the child gets out of the cute baby stage and goes through all the other stages of his/her life including teenage and early adulthood.  Check with your local school board or community education program to see if they offer parenting classes and take one just to see what all is involved.  And of course pray about it, prayer does a lot for for the soul.

KJuneBug's picture
Re: Um...Children?

No, Moonstruck, said that "Parents have no control...."  

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Titus 2:5

Re: Um...Children?

KJune,

You have every right to disagree and it looks like I hit some nerves here with people but notice I didn't blame the parents.  I pointed out that children CHOOSE to do what they want to do.

I see the flip side of the child coin every single day at my job and at the hospitals where I do my clinicals at. I could pretend it doesn't exist but there's a ton of proof like police blotters, rates of incarceration for juveniles, census levels at hospitals regarding teen ods, dieseses that their parents had no idea they had, etc to prove that it does. 

Parents do not have control over older children aka teenagers or adults perhaps I should have clarified that.  They may think they have control but the reality is they do not. We were all teenagers once and we all know the girl who changed into mini skirts or wore makeup in school but changed back before we went home. We all knew the boy who sneaked liquor or whatever. 

When told the truth most parents refuse to beleive it and blame everyone society, the kid next door, the teacher and sometimes but they should not. Children have free will just like adults. Fear of parental punishment becomes nothing after a while because they already know exactly what each infraction will get them even if it's a whupping or loss of privlieges.

I didn't say don't have rules or let them run amuck but not everything is going to be followed according to a parents desires and no one has full control of another human being at all times. It's literally and physically not possible.

KJuneBug's picture
Re: Um...Children?

It sounds to me that you deal with the exceptions daily, and I am guessing that you aren't a parent. Unless you have parented firsthand, I would say that your opinion really has no validity. If you have or are a parent, lets hope that you have learned something positive here.    

The biggest societal (spelling?) myth is that parents have no influence over their teens and young twenties aged children.  Absolutely parents have infulence! I've seen over and over, even within our church parents who pull back as their children go into teen years, to "let them make decisions"; their children are not living the Christian life.  The most important parenting years are those teen years, involvement and communication and saying "no" is an absolute must.  The most biggest influence parents have is to live consistant lives, it's the mixed messages that confuse the children.  You can't be telling you teens, don't drink, smoke, do drugs etc. then be doing those things yourself.  No, I didn't know any of those types of teens growing up, much to your dismay, I wasn't one myself, neither was my husband.  

I'm with Paula here, we are actively homeschooling, I am a stay at home Momma, and I will fight off the worldly influences with every ounce of my being,  It is high time that we take back the family; the Dad/Mom/Child(ren) kind of family.           

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Titus 2:5

Re: Um...Children?

I agree that her anology was extreme but in the end, as parents we can guide them the best we can but when they turn 18 they are consider adults. Look up Hitler, Stalin, Damer (list can go on), raise in a two parent religious household.  You can also look up A. Lincoln, John Q. Adams, who had not so good childhood but made an extreme impact on the world for the good.

 You hope that you have instilled good morals and beliefs but in the end, they will take the path that they want, not what you want.  A good friend of mine raised her sons in a loving, religious home, one of the best moms out there.  She shared with me today, that her oldest who is in his 20's is going to have a second child out of wedlock with a different woman. It is breaking her heart, she knows she raised him better than this, but it is what it is.  She was a stay home mom, she was involved in every aspect of his life growing up, she has done what everyone has said here.  But in the end, he has turned out different from what you would expect.

paulaayn's picture
Re: Um...Children?

 " Look up Hitler, Stalin, Damer (list can go on), raise in a two parent religious household." -since when did a religious household HAVE TO equal a good/healthy place for children to be raised -take Jim Jones and Jonestown!  I'd be interested in which unbiased biographies of those early childhoods you read.

I don't see how you can say parents have "no control", everything you do while raising your children sets them on the path they will follow.  And yes there is always exceptions, but isn't the saying that " the exception proves the rule"? 

BK, your friend's son may be on the wrong path now, but it's awfully early to be writing him off.  We've heard on here how one can start as a single parent and go on to find your love (and God) and become the person we all hope our children will be.  I certainly didn't mean parents were the only influence, the pull of the world is very strong.  That's one reason I'm going to homeschool.  I intend on fighting the world with every ounce of my being. 

If we sit and wring our hands about the mothers who made bad choices in husbands/number of children they can handle, or the ones that turn out bad regardless of the love they received, then I guess we should all give up having children and the human race should die out. 

Not exactly my choice.  I think it's time we started to reinstitute the nucular/multi-generational family.  Time to throw out most of Feminisims ideals and reverse all the "me/yuppy" generations thinking.  We have to think for the future not just our own pleasure.  Children aren't an accessory or a life long friend.  We are to be their guides/rolemodels.  We've got to start teaching children to take responsibility for their actions.  It's society that has to change.  Giving up having children won't do it.  It's time the "developed world" pulled back from the brink of moral anarchy and went back to the time when we had standards and it was expected that people would live up to them.

 

                                                                                                                                   

Re: Um...Children?

Actually got my facts from my son's college text books.  He is studing criminal justice along with polictical science.  One is on the making of a serial killer and it is where I can base most of my arguement on.  Also the tv show Most Evil will suport most ofthis argument too. For their time, they were consider a 'normal' household.  The point also was you can do EVERYTHING to protect your child, give them a good up bringing, but not all will turn out for the best.  As for working outside of the home I PROUDLY state that I AM A WORKING MOTHER!!!!  I do agree there are many issues regarding child rearing that are not being address that you are stating. I've seen too many parents overendulge their child in the name of love.  My arguement with my friend's son is that he too was raise just what you are avocating.  We are not writing him off. just making the observation that you can not control how they turn out unless you take away their free will.  Then all you have is a rebelling teenager/adult on your hand.  I am not saying give up having children.  I work with children EVERY DAY!!! They are the reason I am doing the job I am doing!!!! I love my job MOSTLY because of the children.  But TOO MANY are having them with a blind eye to the future and for the wrong reasons.

paulaayn's picture
Re: Um...Children?

  Yeah, like professors don't pick the textbooks that support their theories.  And it's not like abuse is hidden -especially at the turn of the last century.  I KNOW that from experience

I have nothing against working mom's, especially if they have to.  But who's values are the children being raised with.  Not the families.  How can it be family values when children spend 12+ of their waking hours at daycare -and I KNOW that from direct experience too.

I think it's probably time to let this discussion go and agree to disagree.  It's easy to misunderstand each other since we can't hear tone.  I'm sure Kevin and Rachel talked all about this before they married anyway.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

LuvMaerz's picture
Re: Um...Children?

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift... that's why they call it the present."

 I apologize because I am a bit confused by your post, with all due respect.  Much of what you said is true, but not always.  Any type of biological process has its risks and consequences; something as simple as taking a drink of water or a bite of a sandwich could, theoretically, cause me to choke and die.  That's is just part of the life we live in this body.

By the time most moms and babies go home from the hospital, the baby is just starting to "wake up" from that honeymoon phase of basically being tuckered out from the whole birth experience.  Both of my girls cried and cried that first night home.  This is where the teamwork of the parents helps to bring them through this life experience together, stronger than ever as a FAMILY.  You learn from your mistakes and you grow.  Again, that's one of the lessons of life. 

...by the time the second one comes, you're an old pro Smile

Re: Um...Children?

Sorry but where is it confusing? Your daughters cried just like they all do when their bodies adjust to the real world. As you said the honeymoon was over and you made it through because you had a support system. You're a nurse and you know that many people do not have it and I'm not talking about the single mothers.

A lady was discharged from an area hospital with her 5th baby, she is married and her husband decided to not come pick her up because he was sleeping. He also decided to watch the SuperBowl instead of seeing his baby be born. She had to be sent home in a cab that the hospital paid for. A nurse brushed her hair, a student packed her bag, another student held her baby because the mother requested she do it because she was exhausted to the bone. Her only support system in the world was at the hospital. Her story is not the exception it is just about the rule in my area. Wish it wasn't so but it is.

I am afraid yes because I'm scared one those kids will end up a stat at my job that I work at while I'm in school. We do not have a single day that goes by where we don't have a homicide investigation of a small child or infant. Most of the reasons named by the parents for what they have done is "I snapped" "I couldn't take it", "they just wouldn't stop crying" and most didn't mean to hurt them let alone kill them but the fact is they did.

I didn't say no one should have kids, I'm saying don't go down this road if one doesn't have a real support system. They are hard hard work and they are not for everyone. It's reckless for people to suggest all humans should be parents. I honestly think we should have to have a license or a psych eval.

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